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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 13, 2008 4:50:13 GMT -6
What's your opinion about this event? Who would you support?
Western Army (Led by Mitsunari) Vs Eastern Army (Led by Ieyasu)
*Based on history
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
Posts: 87
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 13, 2008 20:41:00 GMT -6
lol, this used to be a topic where I thwarted the supporter of Ieyasu. ;D Oh well, If I were given the opportunity to be at Sekigahara, I would happily supported the western army, Mitsunari armies.
Reason? nothing special, in my supporting role to Mitsunari's I always see Ieyasu, as a schemer plotter thats all. Finish off Ieyasu once and for all, as Hideyoshi spare him the first time, now is time to wipe off the disloyal daimyos and lords to the toyotomi Clan.
This has nothing to do with samurai warrior game.
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Tenchi
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by Tenchi on Nov 13, 2008 21:29:34 GMT -6
I agree with Quentinos completely. While I never really liked Mitsunari Ieyasu in my opinion is even worse. I think he was too power hungry and I was more fond of the other leaders in the western army also
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 13, 2008 21:52:24 GMT -6
Hmmm...Thanks for your opinions dudes.
I'll surely support Ieyasu. Reasons:
1) Ieyasu is a clever plotter. He knows what to do and when to do. Look at how he allied himself from time to time. Although he shifted from time to time but that's normal for that period of time because it's an age of sudden death & betrayal.
2) He charismatic leader. He managed to gather a lot of talents under his banner such as Tadakatsu Honda, Masamune Date, Naomasa Li, Hanzo Hattori & many more.
3) Militarily, he's a great commander in the battlefield. Although he did lose some battles but he had won decisive battles. Even, Hideyoshi knew he couldn't waste his time fighting with Ieyasu so he signed a peace treaty with him.
4) Mitsunari is a talented guy but not good enough to lead people. He had a lot of people by his side after the death of Hideyoshi & Toshiie Maeda but because of his character, many disliked him. They had no other choice, either continue to support him or join the other side who's a charismatic and great leader.
5) Eventhough if the Werstern Army won the battle, the power would go into the hand of Ishida not Toyotomi because of their family background & the heir of Toyotomi was still young. Thus, the land still will be in chaos.
6) Ieyasu did end the chaotic Sengoku period.
That's all for now. ;D
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
Posts: 87
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 14, 2008 23:58:22 GMT -6
Hmmm...Thanks for your opinions dudes. I'll surely support Ieyasu. Reasons: 1) Ieyasu is a clever plotter. He knows what to do and when to do. Look at how he allied himself from time to time. Although he shifted from time to time but that's normal for that period of time because it's an age of sudden death & betrayal. 2) He charismatic leader. He managed to gather a lot of talents under his banner such as Tadakatsu Honda, Masamune Date, Naomasa Li, Hanzo Hattori & many more. 3) Militarily, he's a great commander in the battlefield. Although he did lose some battles but he had won decisive battles. Even, Hideyoshi knew he couldn't waste his time fighting with Ieyasu so he signed a peace treaty with him. 4) Mitsunari is a talented guy but not good enough to lead people. He had a lot of people by his side after the death of Hideyoshi & Toshiie Maeda but because of his character, many disliked him. They had no other choice, either continue to support him or join the other side who's a charismatic and great leader. 5) Eventhough if the Werstern Army won the battle, the power would go into the hand of Ishida not Toyotomi because of their family background & the heir of Toyotomi was still young. Thus, the land still will be in chaos. 6) Ieyasu did end the chaotic Sengoku period. That's all for now. ;D Tau, I'll give you one good reason why I would reply you is due to the last point you said, "Ieyasu did end the chaotic sengoku period?" no man, it wasn't Ieyasu. The best description who truely ends the Japan internal strife is Hideyoshi Toyotomi. It was Hideyoshi that controls the central of Japan, and co-exist with the other powerful daimyos like Mori, Shimazu, Ukita, Uesugi, Chosakobe. Remember "co-exist", Ieyasu did tried challenge Hideyoshi, but he lost in the battle with Hideyoshi suffering utterly defeat, but Hideyoshi spared him. Same as he did with the Shimazu and the Chosakobe. After Hideyoshi eliminates Mitsuhide Akechi and Katsuei Shibata, Japan was already in peaceful era, until Hideyoshi died. Ieyasu, waits only seizes the chance, where he thinks no one can ever opposing him after the most influential of the "5 administrators" Toshiie Maeda dies. Charismatic leader? hahaha!!yeah I'll give Ieyasu a charismatic leader all right. But theres one thing you forgot, Ieyasu was originally a daimyo, a lord of mikawa who owns his lands and his own generals; Mitusnari? besides owning his old hometown fief, he has no military power. But he is still able to summon Chosakobe the dorminator of Shikoku Island; Shimazu the lord of Kyushu; Mori the western Japan dorminator; Ukita the allies of Toyotomi Clan; Uesugi Clan from the eastern of Japan also supports toyotomi Clan despite of their position. I'll accept the names of the Ieyasu officer's allies and generals that you mention Tau, but you forgot on the side of Mitsunari, there is Kiyooki Shima (Sakon Shima), Yoshisugu Otani, Yukinaga Konishi, Yoshihiro Shimazu and his sons and many more. These generals have real deeds in the military war and have official records. Tadakatsu Honda and Hanzo Hattori only has rumors and legends to back them up, I even laugh at Tadakatsu Honda, as historically he did nothing in the sekigahara battle!! besides staying beside Ieyasu. Many dislike Mitsunari? did you mean Fukushima, Kato, Kuroda, and the Kobayakawa from the Mori right? hahaha!!! (shake my head) Fukushima was jealous of Mitusnari in charge of Toyotomi most affairs, while he only knows how to fight in battle but don't know how to administer affairs, thats why hideyoshi puts his trust on Mitusnari; Kato is even ridiculous than Fukushima, he hates Yukinaga Konishi, he was tempted to join Mitusnari, but later he found out Konishi has join western army, he just joins the eastern army to kill Konishi. Despite the fact that he and Fukushima both receives much more help, benefits from Hideyoshi since their were young, they still going against Hideyoshi. In the end? Both of them was eliminated by Ieyasu after the war. Kuroda and Kobayakawa? lol Kobayakawa was a "foster son" of Hideyoshi when Hideyoshi was at that time heirless, and Hideyoshi entrusted the teaching affairs to his trusted tacticians, the Kurodas. When Kobayakawa did foul errands during the Korea Campaign, Mitsunari the inspector of the military reported on Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi on account Kobayakawa is his foster son, and the tactician Kurodas request, Kobayakawa was spared, but after this event it was publicity known, and this makes Kurodas lost face as indirectly means Kurodas has failed to guide the Kobayakawa, so he hates Mitusnari; Kobayakawa is a slime worm. When Hideyoshi at his 60th age, he was blessed with a son, that is Hideyori. With his birthright, he will be the ones who will succeed the future Toyotomi Clan, not Kobayakawa anymore, thus he was devastated. He only joins the western army, because Ankekuji the head administer of the family, entrusted by late Motonari Mori strongly suggested so. Besides, Kobayakawa joins the western army, because he was offered by Mitsunari himself the highest government title that kobayakawa dreams of,---the region title. In the end, Kobayakawa switch sides to Ieyasu resulting the favor of Ieyasu, bacause he felt life threaten by Ieyasu...=_= historiacally, kobayakawa was never get what he derserves despite he is the one who bring victory to Ieyasu, he was recorded as he turns mad (haunted by the ghost of western army) or secretly killed by Ieyasu. Only the Kurodas who didn't interfere with Ieyasu, and his fief was quite far away from Ieyasu's control, only him the originate from the Toyotomi clan was spared. Given by the strong supporters of the strongest daimyos during that time, Uesugi Clan, Shimazu Clan, Chosakobe Clan, Mori Clan, Ukita Clan I'll say he has pretty much strong back ups. Besides, Mitusnari was well known for his skilled in administrating state affairs, not in war. Without Ieyasu, he and the remaining "5 administrators" should be able to government well along with the young lord of Toyotomi. Ieyasu only has the Date Clan to back him up, if I recall correctly through marriage? Yeah you are right, Ieyasu "did" end the Sengoku period by buying his heritage from the nobles and deceive the courts by forming his own shogunate. Unfortunately, the country wasn't even ruled with peace, because there is the Osaka Battle, many still disasistisfied with Ieyasu reign, and Ieyasu shogunate only rule like 4 generation? 200 years with uneasy peace? Like I said before, I thwarted many Ieyasu supporters, I hope you will take it as a infomation learning on the other side. I will apologize if I sounded offended. Bless those souls who died on the sekigahara battle.
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 15, 2008 1:47:34 GMT -6
No problem. I like learning and I don't know the history as much as you do. Just one thing dude, don't use these words "hahaha or shaking head". I don't know Sengoku history that much but I'm here to share and learn. Keep on replying and correcting because I appreciate your effort. ;D Now let me share some of my thoughts and findings. Even if West had won the fight, who knows how long the peace would have lasted . Hideyori wouldn't have been able to become shogun because of his origins (after all, his father was originally a peasant), which was necessary in order to maintain the peace. Without the title of shogun, they would have to rely on a "puppet" to rule for them (which usually ends badly). The Toyotomi didn't emphasize the system of marriages that Ieyasu favored in order to secure loyalty from the other daimyo. Ieyasu did a good work in securing his future. Even if Toyotomi rules, it's impossible to tell what kind of leader Hideyoshi's son would have been. They might have waged war against neighbouring lands and they'll be living in a war period not Edo period (Just look what Hideyoshi did after unifying the land - still no peace). Despite having a lot of talents, Mitsunari still lost to Tokugawa (based on your comment). If Sakon didn't rush with 2000 men, he might not get shot and killed. Tadakatsu Honda might not have a lot of historical evidents to back him up but he still considered one of the 4 most valued guardian of Tokugawa. Even Nobunaga, Shingen & Hideyoshi praised him highly. He didn't do much at Sekigahara but he did helped in other battles. Mitsunari even implemented a hostage system, taking the relatives of various lords, in order to almost force them to fight. Ieyasu was overall more effective, relying instead on his very extensive, and powerful, marriage system. The west could have won if Mitsunari could have show some respect.As Hideyoshi said,Mitsunari a fool who keep making ememies espcially with the Shimazu,Kato and Fukushima. He reported negatively about some fellows during Korean Campaings. Even Ieyasu was almost assasinated which caused him to act faster. If it's true what he had reported about them, he musn't placed the defectors in the high places which was the vital and pivotal place of the battle. Ok dude, that's all for now. I hope we can continue to comment and reply as we're doing right which is really good. Sorry if I said something offensive & do correct me if I'm wrong.
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
Posts: 87
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 15, 2008 12:51:39 GMT -6
Yeah, I agree to the point when you mention the Korea Campaign launched by Hideyoshi. But you must ask this question as well "Why invade korea?" Hideyoshi has hoped that after the end of internal strife in Japan, he hoped that by successfully conquering the Korea, would benefit for himself and Japan as well. It was clearly Hideyoshi has underestimate the navals of Korea that have cost him the campaign, but aside of these ill intention, he still has the best interest of Japan and himself. Tau understand this, the "5 administrators" establish to support Japan court and administrating state affairs, this even include Ieyasu was one of the "elders" from various clans, not only the toyotomi; Ankekuji representative of Moris has present himself into Hideyoshi's team of goverment.
On the second point of view to Sakon, Sakon's death doesn't cost the entire western army to lose. It was Kobayakawa's on the western army that betrays and attack the western frontlines that turn the tide war favor to Ieyasu. Yes indeed, I agree on Tadakatsu, one of Ieyasu "Four heavenly generals" but tell me something, besides Tadakatsu Honda which once led a calvary unit to halt Hideyoshi from pursueing Ieyasu, what else does he did? help in other battles? this baffles me which battle? Tadakatsu Honda did nothing in the Sekigahara, and he certainly didn't present at the Osaka campaign either, as he pass away before that event. His comrades Okubo and Naomasa did a better job than he is, it seems he is more like a assisting bodyguard than a general in battle. Yea, the hostage system I'll admit that is the wrong movement to make as he doesn't understand the way of the samurai. Mitsunari was a monk at first when he was just a child later come into service to Tototomi Clan. So he wasn't baptized into the samurai way. If you say Ieyasu has effectively used the marriage alliance as he did, so did Mitsunari. Mitsunari has manage to summon Yoshihiro Shimazu despite the fact that he did reported on Shimazu. The before battle preparings has clearly shown that Mitsunari has manage to gathered a larger forces to be reckon with. It takes guts to lead a war for a no experience war affairs politician.
As I said before, Ieyasu was a daimyo himself, he has his own generals and army forces, he already has resources to start with, while Mitsunari has nothing. Some of the Ieyasu supporter always grabs to the point where Mitsunari is an arrogant, a disrespectful guy. But did you know, when he begin to launch campaign against Ieyasu, he beg right in front of Kiyooki Shima and even offered him an outrageous salary despite of his high status position? (samurai warrior has created this "little scene" but not in the battlefield) Mitsunari implores Kiyooki Shima, as he respect him and as well as entrusted on him the military affairs. Yoshisugu Otani has leper disease, but Mitsunari didn't mind him at all and still continue makes friends with him BEFORE the sekigahara battle, he also did invite Fukushima and Kato before this, but fails in attempt despite their previous grudge.
When everyone sees Hideyoshi busy to launching campaigns to Odawara castle, Kyushu battle etc, it was Mitsunari who manage the administration affairs behind while Hideyoshi can focus on the assault. (Hideyoshi tactician is Kuroda Kanbei at that time, not Mitsunari) Sekigahara battle was a close call for Ieyasu, with the delayed reinforcement from his own son Hidetada, if the battle continues on without betrayal, the battle would have ended in draw or otherwise Ieyasu will be overwhelmed eventually, if the war prolongs.
When Mitsunari was sent to the execution ground, he was ordered to be beheaded with a blunt saw, the most painful way to die and his entire family clan was annihilated. So does Fukushima Masanori and Kato Kiyomasa who scores a credit in the frontline of Sekigahara, and yet? they were both wipe off after the battle. Sanada Clan assist the Ieyasu (eldest son) but in the end? Masayuki and Yukimura got stripped off the lands, and was exiled even they stand neutral. (The Ueda Castle siege was the stupid idea from Hidetada, Ieyasu eldest son, Hidetada act on his own)
If Ieyasu really did on a good job by governing why there still have Osaka campaign that lasted nearly a year? Not just a few, there were many who joins against Ieyasu.
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 18, 2008 5:44:15 GMT -6
Even if his interest is good, the Korean certainly won't just sit back and let the Japanese to rule them. Some clans in Japan (especially in The East) were forced to submit to Toyotomi once Hideyoshi defeated them. As such, there's high possibility that the future of Japan will still be in Chaos.
It's true but his death stroke a fatal blow to the West especially Mitsunari as he is one of the most important figure in the battlefield.
Yeap, there's not much history recorded about him but he did get praised highly by Nobunaga, Hideyoshi & Shingen. He also had great reputation among the Samurai of his time as he was feared & well respected. As such, he still a great talent or figure for the East.
His marriage efforts is insufficient compared to Tokugawa which was well planned and executed. Just guts & large force won't lead you to success. Mitsunari did some mistakes which led to his downfall and the outcome of the battle testified it.
Mitsunari was doomed since the beginning because he placed the wrong guy at the vital place of the battlefield.
Masayuki & Yukimura was spared by Ieyasu and they should be thankful to the other son of Masayuki & Ieyasu. You're right about Hidetada and his stupid attack at Ueda castle.
Those who oppose him was the one who were defeated or not content with Ieyasu. Osaka Siege was mainly under Hidetada control.
Anyway, the result proved ok under the Tokugawa rule.
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 19, 2008 9:33:11 GMT -6
Even if his interest is good, the Korean certainly won't just sit back and let the Japanese to rule them. Some clans in Japan (especially in The East) were forced to submit to Toyotomi once Hideyoshi defeated them. As such, there's high possibility that the future of Japan will still be in Chaos. It's true but his death stroke a fatal blow to the West especially Mitsunari as he is one of the most important figure in the battlefield. Yeap, there's not much history recorded about him but he did get praised highly by Nobunaga, Hideyoshi & Shingen. He also had great reputation among the Samurai of his time as he was feared & well respected. As such, he still a great talent or figure for the East. His marriage efforts is insufficient compared to Tokugawa which was well planned and executed. Just guts & large force won't lead you to success. Mitsunari did some mistakes which led to his downfall and the outcome of the battle testified it. Mitsunari was doomed since the beginning because he placed the wrong guy at the vital place of the battlefield. Masayuki & Yukimura was spared by Ieyasu and they should be thankful to the other son of Masayuki & Ieyasu. You're right about Hidetada and his stupid attack at Ueda castle. Those who oppose him was the one who were defeated or not content with Ieyasu. Osaka Siege was mainly under Hidetada control. Anyway, the result proved ok under the Tokugawa rule. Not really, the korea invasion was first thought of Hideyoshi who he thinks he has the supreme combat troops from the Moris and the Shimazus. (the naval troops) I wouldn't encourage for Hideyoshi's invasion, but he has most definitely to target korea for more resources. Secondly, the battlefield is highly variable, there is no 100% confirmation in the battlefield. Placing Kiyooki Shima on the front lines to lead, I see nothing wrong with it? is just luck which is not favor with him. Or if you doubt Kiyooki Shima's abilities is not up to the "standard" for a commander, you can always check his bio data on the samuraiwiki, there should be a brief descriptions. Praise you should say? I think theres a whole bunch of the samurais which deserves more praising from Nobunaga or Shingen etc, had they both live longer to see it. Tadakatsu only "specifically" be mentioned in the history because of its spear weapon, and his large, burly figure within the Ieyasu Clan. Yeah, he may be the best combatan warrior in Ieyasu Clan, but in the battlefield, he scores zero, except when Tadakatsu leading a small calavry to halt Hideyoshi from pursueing Ieyasu, thats it. no more no less. Yoshisugu Otani, now hes the man who deserves more than he looks. Yoshisugu Otani was on the western side of Mitsunari, I won't be going on wit his details, you can find his bio on the web. But what he really impressed me, he was physically "weak" on the battlefield; he can't move, his limbs was too fragile, he can't speak, because he has lost his voice, but he still manage to hold the frontlines in Sekigahara from Hosakawa's unit and Naomasa's unit (If I remembered correctly), if you are curious how was the sekigahara battle was process, look on the youtube, theres a documentary uploaded there by a fan. You say Mitsunari did mistakes, which is? please enlighten me. If you going to say the hostage system and the lack of leadership in the battlefield that I already known. Masayuki and Yukimura couldn't possibly wait in the Ueda castle to let Hidetada ran them over would they? Hidetada WANTS to invade the sanada region with his mass armies. As a matter of fact, the Sanadas were staying neutral in the politics, helping neither side. Masayuki and Yukimura should be grateful to Ieyasu, because they resist Hidetada's unit and delaying their arrival in Sekigahara? wow, either Hidetada is finding execuses or Ieyasu is bend on destroying the sanadas, in fear of their military might. Which is unfortunately, both factors ARE the reason to exile sanadas, it was all an execuses. Hidetada should take the responsible blame, NOT THE SANADAS. Hideyoshi, during his campaign to fight with Moris, he has made quite an impression to the lords of the west; He acknowledge the Chosakobe the rightful ruler of Shikoku island; After the battle at Kyushu, he proclaim the Shimazus as a rightful ruler in Kyushu as well; He made solid alliance with Ukita and Moris. After the death of Hideyoshi, and after the great war at Sekigahara, the Osaka campaign was ensured, due to the many feedback responses from those who receive mercy and help from Hideyoshi. Note, I say "Mercy", why mercy? check the samurais who participate on the osaka campaign on Hideyoris. Of course, Hideyori cannot be compared to Hideyoshis, but nor do I see Ieyasu's good in ruling, not because he reaps the "fuits" from Nobunaga and Hideyoshi. He simply take his chances to take the "throne" regardless of Hideyoshi has shown great benefit to Ieyasu, If you can find solid proof that defines Mitsunari and his goverment team was poor in ruling before Ieyasu's uprising, I will taken back everything I said. I will only admit Ieyasu good at get rid of his potential enemy; good in ruling at his old age, last few years before his dying time? not really. As Ieyasu dies, so does his shogunate empire begin to falls, and ended pitifully.
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 19, 2008 18:14:27 GMT -6
1) About the Korean Invasion, I still will stick to my decision. We aren't getting anywhere with it. It's just a matter of opinion of you and me. You'll say it's for the better future of Japan and I'll say it's just will cause chaos in the future. Anyway, it ended in misery.
2)I didn't say that placing him isn't the right choice. I only said that Sakon's error and death shattered Mitsunari and the West. I've a lot of respect for him as he's a good in terms of ideas and fighting.
3) You just can't accept that Tadakatsu Honda is good. You only see on one side. I did told you that his history doesn't back him up much. Maybe that there's something still uncovered. Nobunaga, Shingen & Hideyoshi aren't just a bunch of mediocres. They can't just say thing like that to a blurly figure and it happens that all 3 of them prised Tadakatsu highly. I still say Tadakatsu is a great talent present in Sekigahara.
4) Yonutssugu Otani... I said nothing against him and he deserves your praise. (He's good but I'm not sure why did he joined Mitsunari from Ieyasu)
5) You said it takes a lot of guts to lead a war but I added that others factors like military, politic and etc also comes along. That's why Mitsunari lost (due to his mistakes). I'm talking about your point that you replied not his mistakes directly.
6)"With Ieyasu effectively named an enemy of the state, Mitsunari issued an invitation to the Sanada to rethink their current support for Ieyasu and join the Western, anti-Tokugawa coalition. Faced with a complex dilemma on the eve of an all or nothing struggle between Ieyasu and Mitsunari’s coalition, Masayuki complied with Mitsunari’s wishes and immediately withdrew his forces from the field and returned to Ueda, taking Yukimura with him."
This is a proof about his not being neutral.
I don't know where you get this from which is certainly not from me. I said that they should be thankful because Ieyasu spared them despite they listened to Mitsunari. I never give credit to Hidetada and his siege of Ueda castle. Ieyasu wants to rule the land after Sekigahara, right? He can't let those two who refused to join him remain with land and title however due to the merit of the elder son of Masayuki did Ieyasu spared them and exiled them as well. If he did and they rebelled and this is where you'll say that Ieyasu did mistake for keeping loose cannons.
7) I didn't compare Hideyoshi with his son and yes he did gave them mercy. I just say Ieyasu proved to be a better ruler of the land after Hideyoshi rather than the coalition even for 4 generation and led to their downfall which doesn't caused by him directly.
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 20, 2008 1:15:18 GMT -6
1.) I have learn enough each of the charcters and figures during Nobunagas era, and sadly I find Tadakatsu is being overated as the time comes by. Yeah, he looks awfully powerful with his deer antler helmet, armed with the tonbogiri spears with a burly above average size of a man with a full battle suit, but thats it. A bodyguard to Ieyasu. Receiving praises isn't enough to convince me, he is that good. "Actions speaks louder words" Okubo and Naomasa did more credit work in Ieyasu's, but Tadakatsu remains mystery and nothing in his military career.
2.) Why Yoshisugu Otani join Mitsunaris? well Otani, Yukinaga Konishi, Kiyomasa Kato and Masanori Fukushima were Hideyoshi's prized general in the Toyotomi Clan. Along with the other 3 samurai generals, they were named as the "seven spears" during the Katsuei Shibata campaign. Yoshisugu Otani join Mitsunaris because: Mitsunari had invited him so, second this is a battle to preserve the Toyotomi Clan, so Yoshisugu and Yukinaga joins Mitsunaris as supportive loyalist. Rumor has it, Fukushima, Kato, Otani, Katagiri, Mitsunari joins the Toyotomi Clan in a very young age, it was Hideyoshi who groom them.
3.) Er, Mitsunari did make a lot awful mistakes, but the real deal downfall which causing Mitsunari to lose Sekigahara is because, Kobayakawa Hideaki flip to Ieyasu sides. THIS CAUSE THE DOWNFALL, remember Mitsunari did offer Hideaki Kobayakawa a very tempting offer for bestowing region title, however, it was the very last minute Hideaki switch to Ieyasu sides. Ieyasu did his job to convince Hideaki before Sekigahara, but he didn't completely convince Hideaki to flip. Overall, Hideaki is the key factor of this Sekigahara, not just because he flip to the side of Ieyasu, if the records were correct, Hideaki was holding a mass soldier troop leading one of the wings in the front lines. Yoshisugu Otani while fighting off 2 company unit from Ieyasu, couldn't withstand Hideaki's rear attack from sides. Thus crushing the western lines from within. Same goes with Yukinaga as well.
4.) Well, the Sanadas didn't help the Ieyasu, but they didn't help Mitsunari's side either. If the Sanadas did join the western army, I would expect Ieyasu to redeploy or strategize to counter Sanadas from behind. As you've mention in the earlier forum, the eldest son of Masayuki has join Ieyasu's side, so they wouldn't want to cross fire with their own kinsmen. From the sanadas side of view, it is best to stay neutral; first Masayuki's eldest son join Ieyasu sides. Second, as you've mention it, the court has announce Ieyasu as a rebel. Not just Masayuki complied to this edict you know, the other minor clans complied to this edict from the imperial court as well. But why does the Sanadas have to suffered this ill fated result? they certainly didn't provoke Hidetada, as the Ueda castle is not on the roads to hinder Hidetada's troop to Sekigahara was it? No, it wasn't. So Hidetada ask for himself to credit a score of merit by eliminating those who didn't join Ieyasu, but was delayed unexpectedly by the Sanadas for more than weeks. Yet the Sanada Clan was to be exterminate, and exiled? on account for staying neutral? I'll say it was Hidetada, he himself who is the one breaking the "neutral" himself.
5.) Did you see Hideyoshi banishing Ieyasu's clan, after Ieyasu openly defy and lost to Hideyoshi? Ieyasu has the choosing option to deal with Sanadas, but he has to chose the exile method, to force the Sanadas to the no man's land. Did you know that, this is the most humiliated punishment to a daimyo? who he did nothing harmful to Ieyasu's campaign? if Ieyasu wanted to punish the Sanadas for hindering the reinforcements for the late arrivals in Sekigahara, he could have cut the lands of Sanadas, strip off their lands, cut their koku payment (salary) or strip off their titles, why banishing to the exile? this makes no sense for a so call "good ruler."
Ieyasu was afraid of them like I mentioned in above (The last of the elite Kai from Takedas), and fear that he couldn't handle them in military, he has to use the power authority of the court to pressurize the Sanadas, and get rid of them. Ironically, this triggers the return of the Sanadas in the Osaka Campaign, and a fierce bloody showdown was ensured.
6.) A good ruler must be able to set his countries right to the cause. Especially, the foundation of a country. Ieyasu did build his shogunate empire, however he can never receive acknowledgement from the lands of Kyushu, Chugoku and Shikoku. Ieyasu reigns only within the central island of Japan, while the east of Japan has been controlled by the Dates and Uesugis. His empire foundation is weak, only to maintain fragile position with the other lords, not bonded like Hideyoshi does. If the starting of the foundation of a country didn't set it right in the beginning, this will bring it down to the next generation, unless the younger generation of government can set it right afterwards.
I doubted Ieyasu good ruling of government, simply because of the Kyushu Island, Chugoku (western Japan, where Moris ruled) and Shikoku Island never did see Ieyasu as a ruler all the way after 200 years. Shikoku (Tosa), Kyushu (Satsuma) and the last Moris Clan were the ones who bring it down to the crumble shogunate empire in the end. Had Ieyasu develop more benevolence in his ruling era, there wouldn't be Osaka campaign in the first place. (Osaka Campaign was launched after years of Sekigahara)
Ieyasu shogunate empire politically didn't do anything good to Shikoku and Kyushu, if you don't believe check it out on the web. Very Ironically, Kyushu, Shikoku and Chugoku was holding the most advance technology in regardings of commerce, food sources(fishing) and science during that Sengoku Jidai.
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 20, 2008 17:20:40 GMT -6
Yu can as many time as you want that Tadakatsu Honda isn't great but I'll still say that he's great. Why would those three great people of Sengoku period praise him highly. Are they stupid or are they lacking of knowledge to judge? They were political figures, great commanders & great stategist as well as econimically. They won't be praising just for time passing especially Nobunaga. Surely, they've seen something about Tadakatsu in the battlefield as they were commanders. Do you think myth itself is ample for their praise? Why would they take their time to praise some unknown figure who does nothing as you said.
You also need to add in the factor that in 1599. Ishida Mitsunari wen't as far as attempting to have Tokugawa Ieyasu assassinated. He only escaped death because Ieyasu helped him personally. Ishida Mitsunari might have been capable, but he lacked true leadership skills.
Tokugawa Ieyasu was a much better candidate and probably the logical choice to beat Ishida. He had the power, the reputation as a cautious and calculating planner and strategist and a large number of loyal commanders.
After Toyotomi's death, it was Mitsunari who jumped and started accusing Ieyasu of breaking vows to the Toyotomi. Causing the party to split into two, both preparing for war. Butboth parties came to a peaceful agreement. The Commissioners then admitted their error and apologized. (Note: Ieyasu had marriage & alliances which was disturbing Ishida).
After Mitsunari's accusations failed against Ieyasu with the "Political Influence" ordeal. It is said Mitsunari went on to attempt trying to get Maeda Toshiie [Hideyori's guardian] to quarrel with the Tokugawa Ieyasu. Both men saw through thus his second attempted failed.
The two assassination attempts on Ieyasu. The first in In 1599, when Ieyasu went to Osaka castle with Hideyori. The plot failed, onto the next one. The second plot was three months later when Ieyasu was called by the dying Maeda Toshiie. Ishida Mitsunari's plans were discovered and the generals prepared to kill him. Ishida Mitsunari fled to Fushimi, where Ieyasu convinced the men who pursued it was to keep Mitsunari in confinment. Following this Mitsunari was sent to Sawayama in Omi province.
Ieyasu was preparing for what I believe Mitsunari had been planning to do the whole time. Which was destroy the Tokugawa, even if it meant more lives and bringing the land to war. With Uesugi Kagekatsu finally rebelling only months after his leave. Then Ishida's little run west for support. This all pretty much lead up to Sekigahara! Mitsunari had been plotting long before Ieyasu took any real actions. Aside from marriage/alliances, of course.
Quoted from samurai archive under Yukimura's bio.
This clearly shows us that both of them weren't neutral. Ieyasu afraid of their military power??? No but he doesn't want any loose cannon under his feets. Once again they should be thankful to Ieyasu for sparing them. One more thing, the return of Sanadas at Osaka is better than the betrayal of Sanadas if Ieyasu let them have their land and title. Ieyasu did what best for him and his side.
There's another reason why some defects because Hideyoshi forcing other daimyo to submit to his power as opposed to Ieyasu's complex political alliances. Mitsunari is too reckless and headstrong.He can't look at the big picture this is why the western army losed at the battle of Sekigahara
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
Posts: 87
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 22, 2008 8:43:50 GMT -6
As I did my homework to studies the history figures, seriously Tadakatsu Honda is still just a overated figure. Comparing to his own comrades within the Ieyasu Clan, his fighting abilities "maybe" the cream of the crop (which we have only rumor, no fact ) but his militaries credit was still scoring zero points. Tadakatsu's view can go on argue forever, but if his abilities is good as his say,then what is he doing during his serving to Ieyasu Clan all this time? this comes to me a possible conclusion; Tadakatsu is a close bodyguard to Ieyasu. It kinda make senses to me as well, he can easily eradicated enemy easily, but in fact his duty was not commanding troops, but guarding Ieyasu. Praises, as I said before praises alone won't justify a man's abilties, as it can be overated. "Looks can be deceiving" they say.
Before I begin to the assasination response, Mitsunari Ishida was the main "guardian" of Hideyori Toyotomi. How is that possible? well, Maeda has his own division clan to lead, plus Maeda was consider one of the elders within the Toyotomi government. But Mitsunari was the main leading administration that was from the original Toyotomi clans, Hideyoshi was requesting Maeda to help him watch over his son, however it was Mitsunari who does the guardian work here. Hideyoshi despite surrounded by many capable hands bfore his death, but there is only a few he can fully give trust, one of those man besides Toshiie Maeda, is Mitsunari himself. Kuroda, another heavy weight in the Toyotomi clan, the master tactician within the toyotomi clan wasn't fully trusted by Hideyoshi at his later life, as Hideyoshi fear of his exceptional abilities. The main evidence to support my above view, is Hideyoshi's last poem. Don't know how to translate as the translation poem is in chinese.
I recall, I didn't say Mitsunari has overwhelming leadership than Ieyasu in the first place right? but Mitsunari has exceptional talents in administrating government, and in politics.
Yeah, Ieyasu did have better chances to beat Mitsunari, since Ieyasu has seen through some battle skirmishes before Mitsunari was placed in Toyotomi. It will be awfully awkward for Ieyasu to be beaten by someone who has no experience in war at all. Come to think of it, thats the idea right? to start an uprising against someone who know nothing to war, at a right time.
For the accusing part, Mitsunari has to be suspicious of Ieyasu. After all, Ieyasu is the only clan who fought against the Toyotomi, and gaining one of the promising power and military authority at that time. Mitsunaris worries is not without reason, as Maeda pass away, one of the strongest military support and pillar of Toyotomi, his worry for the Toyotomi Clan doubles. As Mitsunaris knew he can't be able to hold out Ieyasu, if he stays idle by to watch Ieyasu slowly working his way to consume Toyomi Clan in their weakest hour.
As you mention the assasination, If I were Ieyasu, I would let go of Mitsunaris. Killing him in dark, would only added and supported Mitsunaris view of Ieyasu, to the remaining toyotomi retainers and to the other clans, which is; Ieyasu did have the motive to overthrow Toyotomi Clan, and Mitsunari has been mysteriously killed! which Ieyasu has been working hard to deny from it all along before sekigahara.
When you mention the word "loose cannon", you already admit that the fact, that Sanadas is one of the formidable forces to be reckon with. By means of saying neutral, the true head of Sanadas was Masayuki, not his eldest son Nobuhiro. Nobuhiro joins the Ieyasu, that doesn't comply that the whole Sanada Clan is entire with him. Besides, the Sanadas didn't even join the Ieyasu's eastern army in the sekigahara battle at the first place, and either in political alliance.
There are many ways of punishment, and Ieyasu has to choose the most awful way to deal with Sanadas. The exile, it doesn't makes any senses, only to concluded Ieyasu was in feared of the Sanadas's warring abilities. A possible threat, after eliminating Mitsunari.
Funny you should say many Clan forces was "forced" to submit to Hideyoshi's. If that was true, they wouldn't bother to risk their necks, deploying their own men, travelling from all the way from their homelands to join Mitsunaris to fight in Sekigahara, in the central Japan.
Yeah, I'll admit Mitsunaris weakness as you mentioned in the previous posts a couple of times, but still, the one who causing the downfall of western army is mainly because of Hideaki Kobayakawa sudden defect. Also, quote from Shingen21 earliest post that I do agree with, "Between an arrogant guy and a backstabbing fellow, the arrogant guy is more commendable tah the latter."
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Post by Tau Commander on Nov 22, 2008 18:10:43 GMT -6
1) No matter what you said about him, he still was a great figure during his time. I based on what the other leaders said and it seems that all three of them said and refered to the same guy. This isn't coincidence. Ieyasu might have kept one of his strongest and capable general by his side as Sekigahara. A great commander like him knows how to deploy and he can't send all of his best to the front line. Maybe he has some other ideas as well. As for this guy, there's nothing to discuss about since it's getting repititive post by post from both of us.
2) Ieyasu was strengthening his clan and doesn't want his clan to fall to any other people via political marriage & alliance. Mitsunari tried to convince Maeda to clash with Tokugawa but failed. It's he who tried to assasinate Ieyasu and broke this neutrality. You're right that you didn't say he has overwhelming abilities and neither did I said that. Instead of strengthtening people under the Toyotomi, Mitsunari was too busy with his suspicious ideas. All Ieyasu did was to make sure that his clan survives.
3) Loose cannons...Allsaid was Ieyasu can't gamble on these Sanadas and it's a possible threat in the future. He wants to build up his new empire. These Sanadas weren't suppoting him at Sekigahara although they were aligned to him before it. Mitsunari managed to convince them to walk out of Tokugawa. I already quoted it from samurai archive. That's why I say that they're loose cannons.
4) Ieyasu did the right thing by not killing Mitsunari in the first place. Perhaps he knew that Mitsunari will 'benefit' him by living for the time being. The benefit is testified at Sekigahara.
5)
Since you said that you read the battle, you should know how did those clans 'risk their necks'.
6)
Ieyasu was certainly sure about his plan about the defection. Otherwise he might had deployed his troops carefully. It was Ieyasu backing Kobayakawa when Mitsunari reporting negatively about him and Kobayakawa remembered this well. He even asked his mother on which side he should join and his mother said Ieyasu and that cleared his stand further. You can't blame everything about Korean Invasion on him. The wholse campaing was a failure from the planning itself because they neglect some factors. Kobayakawa hesitate to act until Ieyasu began firing toward the hill side just remind Kobayakawa about his part. Even the Mori stayed out of it. Shimazu would have done the same as the Mori/Kikawa if they weren't forced to engaged by Ieyasu's general. Shimazu didn't act when requested by Mitsunari. Bottom line is, you can't blame Ieyasu for their defection and schemer but Mitsunari is the one who should be blamed. Mitsunari screwed himself.
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Quentinos
Junior Member
"The Man With A Thousand Mask"
Posts: 87
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Post by Quentinos on Nov 24, 2008 11:21:54 GMT -6
Lol, *sigh* well here it goes. Sanadas did not aligned to any other clan except themselves. Yes, Mitsunari did issue a decree of proclaiming, which is branding Ieyasu is a court traitor like that, but the Sanadas DIDN'T STAY ON THE MITSUNARI SIDE. Again, Nobuhiro sanada joins the Ieyasu on his own account, not representative of the entire clan, so the Sanadas didn't owe any alliances to them. So they did stay neutral indeed. The first idea that must think before hand, if Hidetada Togukawa didn't lead his forces to assault the Sanada's stronghold, I would bet the Sanadas Clan will not be suffered in such a dreadful fate.
As I mention in the previous post before, not just the sanadas staying "neutral" as you know, THERE ARE OTHER MINOR LORDS who didn't heed both sides, and stay neutral politic for themselves. In fact, the reason of the exile and banning the Sanadas from their homelands is not reasonable.
Execuse me? Yoshihiro Shimazu's son died on sekigahara battlefield; Kiyooki Shima, Yoshisugu Otani died on battlefield; Ekei Ankekuji, Yukinaga Konishi, and Mitsunari Ishida was caught and executed. Is their actions not proven risking their lives or what?
Again I need to remind you one thing; the sekigahara battle was resulted due to the SUDDEN DEFFECT of Hideaki Kobayakawa. Yeah, Ieyasu did send Hideaki Kobayakawa over to him before the sekigahara commits, but note that Hideaki Kobayakawa was offered by Mitsunari's side as well. If this is full planning along as you've said, why did Ieyasu has to send a couple of times, even life threatening Kobayakawa Hideaki with rifles? Ieyasu was grabbing his chances, and LUCKILY it work. Hideaki Kobayakawa was a mindless head and couldn't decide which sides is he on until the Ieyasu's "fire" mind you, that is not a signal fire. It is quite easy for an old veteran to twiddle with the minds of a youngster who has no war experience.
The Moris? did you know the deployments of the sekigahara from both sides? Mori was placed behind Kobayakawa's troops frontline, couldn't advance to the battlefield if they wanted to. All I see is Mitsunari is fighting to preserve his late lord's empire and safe guarding his late lord only heir. I see nothing wrong with Mitsunari, since he himself was brought up by Hideyoshi himself and is only natural for Mitsunari to stand for the young Hideyori.
Ieyasu's rule has proven to him to be just another tyrant, he builds his own empire on a separate Japan with no other lords acknowledges, besides the Dates. Mitsunari screwed himself up, so? after Sekigahara, Ieyasu eliminates Fukushima and Kato, by setting them up; Banishing sanadas with poor reasons and with harsh treatment by exile; Hideaki Kobayakawa didn't get what he deserves, in fact he went mad and died of sickness; Eliminating the whole clan of Mitsunari Ishida, which is not necessary so; Ieyasu didn't bother with Shikoku and Kyushu, the two great islands of Japan, which resulting the separatist anti government activities all along the "Edo" period.
The weak government which he proclaims to be the descendants of noble bloodlines makes me wonders he wants to be shogun titles after all. He has been plotting these years eliminating the Toyotomi from within and the other discontent daimyos right from the beginning after Hideyoshi's death. He may have won the battle at sekigahara, which ironically arguebly thanks to Kobayakawa, but he certainly didn't won the heart of Japan.
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